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i77cat
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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Location: mooresville, nc
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i77cat
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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Location: mooresville, nc
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 Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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And Valpo lost at home today to Truman State. By 14.
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DC69Wildcat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 5057
Location: Concord, NC
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Up next: at Valpo |
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According to the university's web site, a year at Valpo costs roughly $55,000. Like all members of the Pioneer League, Valpo does not give football scholarships. So how do the coaches convince 39 students to stay in school for another year at a cost of $55,000 so they can play football?
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citycat
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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Location: charlotte, nc
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Couldn't some of those redshirts be in school 5 fall semesters and 3 spring semesters, graduating in December when their redshirt senior year of football is over? |
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i77cat
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Dayton lists 52 redshirts. The number is almost certainly higher, as I'd bet anything that some of the guys listed as freshmen end up not burning a season of eligibility this year and will be listed as redshirt freshmen next year. The teams competing for the Pioneer title all choose to use lots of redshirts.
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i77cat
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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Location: mooresville, nc
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Massey numbers are updated. We're up to #418. And Valpo dropped. Saturday's game is now #418 at #358. 18%. 28-41. Our rise now has us favored to win a Pioneer game. We're 51% likely to beat Morehead State.
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"McKillop is a gentleman. He could have played 'name that score' if he so desired."---St Joe's fan |
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JoMo
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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Location: Newark, DE
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| citycat wrote: | | Couldn't some of those redshirts be in school 5 fall semesters and 3 spring semesters, graduating in December when their redshirt senior year of football is over? |
I'm going to guess that they have to do that for the vast majority of those kids since I sincerely doubt any pioneer league player want to graduate with another year's worth of student loans.
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bigcat
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 265
Location: Willow Springs NC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| JoMo wrote: | | citycat wrote: | | Couldn't some of those redshirts be in school 5 fall semesters and 3 spring semesters, graduating in December when their redshirt senior year of football is over? |
I'm going to guess that they have to do that for the vast majority of those kids since I sincerely doubt any pioneer league player want to graduate with another year's worth of student loans. |
I posed this question on the PFL boards last year and a Dayton parent responded that most of the redshirts followed the extra fall semester model and that quite a few had graduated and were taking graduate classes in their last season of eligibility. Sounded reasonable, but my cynical mind suspects that an unusually high number of those redshirt players are quite academically gifted and may have received or are receiving academic merit scholarships.
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85Wildcatsky
Joined: 14 Jan 2015
Posts: 1064
Location: Charlotte
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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The redshirt model is bogus. Davidson and the rest of the league should address it. It is no better than the scholarship programs trying to scam the system. If it is a medical redshirt fine but the current redshirt loophole tends to go against much of the reasoning for setting up the league in the first place.
I do not think the Ivys do any of this nonsense.
PS Last check Butler has 62 redshirts on roster.
PSS Yale does not have any freshmen on their roster.............they are called first year.
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"They were energized by this move to the A-10. How could you not be?" McKillop said. "The tree is filled with a lot of presents." |
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IlliniFlyer
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm the Dayton parent referenced above and I come here in peace. Having said that, I'm not sure I get the confusion/hostility regarding the redshirting concept.
First, if you're looking at another team's roster, the number of players listed as a "RS Fr.-Jr." is irrelevant. The important thing is the number of RS Seniors or 5th Yr. seniors. Simply b/c a player is listed as a RS-Soph, doesn't mean he's going to play his last year. In fact, most of them don't. For example, following the 2017 season, Dayton had about 15 players who were eligible to come back for their 5th year. Only 3 of them actually did (including my kid). And, yes the ones that come back do pay their own way (typically only for a semester), b/c any merit-based aid ends after 4 years.
I'm also not sure I understand the view that the redshirting model is "bogus" or "nonsense." The NCAA has decided that athletes will be given 5 years to play 4 seasons. There are a variety of reasons why a student-athlete might chose to redshirt, including injury, physical development, the need to improve academics, or simply the fact that he's not going to play as a FR. I would note that several of the student-athletes on the Wildcat men's basketball team have taken advantage of this opportunity.
The fact that student-athletes who play FB at Davidson have decided not to take advantage of this opportunity doesn't mean that the rest of the PFL is somehow gaming the system by means of a "loophole." Likewise, taking advantage of redshirting is in no way inconsistent with the original purpose of the PFL and the non-scholarship nature of the conf. Note: As I'm sure you all know, the reason for the PFL's existence is the "Dayton rule" requiring teams that want to compete at the D-I level in one sport (basketball), to compete at the D-I level in all sports.
Again, I'm not looking to pick a fight; just wanted to express an alternate viewpoint. For what it's worth, I really like your new coach and he definitely seems to have things headed in the right direction. Best of luck the rest of the way, particularly at Valpo this weekend. |
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catnhat
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 6397
Location: Asheboro, NC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| It's the $. DC has always wanted students to graduate in 4 years. They don't want folks to have to pay for a 5th year (and resent it). The conspiracy theory is that somehow these red shirts aren't paying for the extra semester. |
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wildforthecats
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 18388
Location: Matthews NC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Let's just worry about beating Alpo right now. |
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TiredCat88
Joined: 24 Nov 2016
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| IlliniFlyer wrote: | I'm the Dayton parent referenced above and I come here in peace. Having said that, I'm not sure I get the confusion/hostility regarding the redshirting concept.
First, if you're looking at another team's roster, the number of players listed as a "RS Fr.-Jr." is irrelevant. The important thing is the number of RS Seniors or 5th Yr. seniors. Simply b/c a player is listed as a RS-Soph, doesn't mean he's going to play his last year. In fact, most of them don't. For example, following the 2017 season, Dayton had about 15 players who were eligible to come back for their 5th year. Only 3 of them actually did (including my kid). And, yes the ones that come back do pay their own way (typically only for a semester), b/c any merit-based aid ends after 4 years.
I'm also not sure I understand the view that the redshirting model is "bogus" or "nonsense." The NCAA has decided that athletes will be given 5 years to play 4 seasons. There are a variety of reasons why a student-athlete might chose to redshirt, including injury, physical development, the need to improve academics, or simply the fact that he's not going to play as a FR. I would note that several of the student-athletes on the Wildcat men's basketball team have taken advantage of this opportunity.
The fact that student-athletes who play FB at Davidson have decided not to take advantage of this opportunity doesn't mean that the rest of the PFL is somehow gaming the system by means of a "loophole." Likewise, taking advantage of redshirting is in no way inconsistent with the original purpose of the PFL and the non-scholarship nature of the conf. Note: As I'm sure you all know, the reason for the PFL's existence is the "Dayton rule" requiring teams that want to compete at the D-I level in one sport (basketball), to compete at the D-I level in all sports.
Again, I'm not looking to pick a fight; just wanted to express an alternate viewpoint. For what it's worth, I really like your new coach and he definitely seems to have things headed in the right direction. Best of luck the rest of the way, particularly at Valpo this weekend. |
The parent makes some good points.
Whining about this is ridiculous. First, Davidson doesn't redshirt kids because the college doesn't want the coaches to do so. In fact, in a number of cases where a kid wanted to use his 5th year, the college has made it extremely difficult for the coach and athlete to extend the eligibility past 4 years. The other side of campus is too worried about their 4 year graduation rates to make this a standard practice. it has nothing to do with whether the kid/family wants to pay for an extra semester or year in college.
When it comes to football, I would have been happy the last 5 or so years if there were enough seniors still around in the program that they would want to use a redshirt year. |
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85Wildcatsky
Joined: 14 Jan 2015
Posts: 1064
Location: Charlotte
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:38 am Post subject: |
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I have no problem with a legit medical redshirt. However if you are slapping mass redshirts on your freshmen class you are basically playing the system. Sure only 5 or 6 players maybe coming back for the extra year but they are typically your best players. Give Wicks, Phelps, and Dugger an extra year and just think what impact they would have adding their talent to a normal graduating senior class.
I made an assumption this league was cobbled together to reduce costs as well as follow a path of academic integrity. Call me skeptical but I just see too much possible abuse with a continual 5 year graduation program for athletes. If you are not going to give out scholarships just follow the Ivy model and be proud of it.
Maybe I am wrong but I just don't see all the schools following Dayton's lead and not offering some type of aid for that 5th year.
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"They were energized by this move to the A-10. How could you not be?" McKillop said. "The tree is filled with a lot of presents." |
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BDL
Joined: 04 Dec 2016
Posts: 1261
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| 85Wildcatsky wrote: | | However if you are slapping mass redshirts on your freshmen class you are basically playing the system. |
What's the problem with gaming the system in an entirely legal way? If you have the opportunity to gain an advantage in a legal way you have to jump at the opportunity. |
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